The Power of Vulnerability in an Epidemic of Fatherlessness

"Often, us dads don't feel adequate, so, we stay silent. It's an epidemic silence."

Podcast links

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/50McgAAuplXhK0UGVZngtE?si=fJ5-Eg-ASzaMjiGZ7NM9hg

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/e5-power-vulnerability-in-epidemic-fatherlessness/id1536527419?i=1000501042621

Transcript

Mary:

I would dare to say that some of the most important stories go untold. That many deep hurts that are hidden behind closed curtains never come to light. I hate that they are suffering in silence. I hate that some people never feel understood about how they grew up and I hate that some people never knew the abuse they experienced wasn't right. The Untold Story project is a collection of stories from people who've said, “yes, I want to speak out to bring education, empathy and hope to those around me.” My name is Mary and I hope you were blessed by this episode of The Untold Story project.

Gary, you're someone who's been doing so many different things in this season right now. So, I want to thank you for taking time out of your very busy schedule when you're discipling so many people to talk to me and whoever's listening. So thank you.

Gary:

You're welcome. It's great to be here Mary. This is awesome.

Mary:

Yeah, thanks! And for those who are listening, can you kind of explain what God is calling you to and this season and what you're doing? A little bit of background on you.

Gary:

Wow, that's a very loaded question. So what God is calling me to in this season. So you know, I help run G42. And this last semester that's ending this week, thank you Jesus, has basically been on my shoulders. Andrew and Moe, as you know live in Spain, I do G42 with them. They couldn't be here because of COVID. And we asked one of our leaders to actually leave and go on sabbatical and so they've checked out. So, I've been kind of running this thing and then asking the Lord, “what's the future?” You know, what is it look like for the world race and adventures and mission? What does it look like for G42 and our leadership school? 

And I'm trying to create a kind of an ecosystem in Colorado Springs. I have to be there for a season of my life, to serve my dad and I have some special needs nephews and nieces. And so, I want to build out part of what we do there. And so a lot happening. 

Mary:

Yeah. And it's a crazy season where so many things are changing and shifting and we're getting squeezed a little bit. Now you're doing a lot of things. And so, working with G42 and a number of different places, you have discipled a lot of people over the course of your lifetime. And a big part of that has been vulnerability and sharing your story. Can you describe kind of the process and when you started this journey into vulnerability and sharing pieces of your life with other people?

Gary:

Absolutely. That's a great question Mary. I think I have made vulnerability one of my five value words. Now this only happened in the last few years. And so, I'll describe that I had a ministry in the 90s called rock the nations that turn into the call. I was the chairman of the board of the call and then turn into the sand. And one, the ministry one came out of that. A lot of things came out of that. And then we were out of ministry for a little while, did a lot of business, step back in and kind of founded and helped do the world race with Seth Barnes and Andrew Sherman and Tom Davis. And that was incredible because Lisa and I, my wife and I were the first coaches. And we moved to Swaziland, Africa with our six kids. As we all know, the world race kind of blew up and it was incredible. We were sending out, blew up in a good way, about a thousand kids a year around the world and then we had to step out of that. We got kicked out of Africa. 

And we went back to Colorado Springs from Swaziland. And I was out of the world race for about five years total like completely. Just focusing on my own kids and business and creating some income and that kind of thing. Coming back into the world race, I literally saw a generation had changed its whole language over the last five to seven years that I had been in full time ministry. And one of the ways that you guys are communicated to is vulnerability. And in fact, you don't really care how cool I am and what I did in my past, right. And when I'm teaching the G42 students or wherever, they don't care about what I've done, or what I've seen, they want to know they have me. They want to know that I'm in the room, I'm available and I'm going to be vulnerable. I have a lamp and I'm going to share some of that. And so, what I realized is I had to learn a new language for a generation that's worth it, right? For us as elders and old people, right, we have to change our language. We have to listen a lot better and instead of talking and trying to fix things. And so, what I've learned to do is listen and then be really vulnerable with my story and some of the really hard things that have happened, which again, I've created most of those hard things, right? The scripture says fall on a rock and the rock is going to fall on you. I had to have a rock fall on me a few times just because of my ego or because I just wasn't listening and that kind of thing. So, key to be vulnerable especially when you're working with the next generation.

Mary:

And what was the hardest part for you in that journey of starting to open up in vulnerability?

Gary:

I never saw it modeled. So when I was a kid and growing up you weren't vulnerable especially as a man, right? My dad was a cowboy. Literally, he rode Kathy Bowles and bucking Broncos and his job was to break horses from like 14 on. And as a cowboy, you did not cry. You didn't show vulnerability. You broke something you got up and got over it and you just kept moving. And so for me to have to learn it was literally like learning a new language. And then seeing how safe that was though and how incredibly accepted that you can be, if you're just you and you're just honest and you can just be. And now you're not vulnerable with everybody obviously, you need to know who you're talking to. But I've learned and it's just becomes a huge part of who I am and my value, my whole value system.

Mary:

 

So you've seen this shift and been in multiple situations from a lack of vulnerability to a lot of vulnerability. What is some of the fruit that has come out of that?

Gary:

 

I think just connecting our heart level with people. I mean, for you and I Mary we've become very good friends and it's been over the last couple years. We were in Spain together. And then we've been on this crazy camp in North Georgia together. And we've walked through some healing with one another and shared our story. And we had to be really vulnerable with one another in getting the healing. You walk through some things just recently that your heart has come alive in for the first time, right? 

So when I'm vulnerable, it opens up a door with people that trust me or learning to trust me to be really vulnerable as well. And I feel like when we can get into the mud of our lives together out of vulnerability then we can walk in healing instead of just staying stuck. And if I came to you Mary and I would have looked at you and said, “just get over yourself, you're fine.” You go, okay, but you would have been hurt and you would have said, “that's nice, but how do I do that?” Now I stop and I really want to listen to Mary's heart and what's happening with her whole life and how do I get her out of her head, right, and more in her heart. The longest journey we'll ever take. And then when I'm vulnerable to in the midst of that then we get on.

Mary:

Yeah! And at least in my experience from a lot of walking through healing with you. Healing comes way quicker when you're actually more vulnerable and open up to sharing pieces of your life that perhaps you haven't talked about before.

Gary:

Absolutely! And there's no way to get to healing without risk and we risk by trusting again, being vulnerable again in the way we keep our hearts open to one another and to the Father and just life is by risking. People have hurt us. People have damaged us. They've hurt our hearts and guess what, we get to keep risking and trusting. And again, people that we were building with. I'm really a big guy now. If it’s not relational to me, I don't want to do it. So if it feels transactional like you're doing something for me so I can give you something, I don't like that. I like relational, right? Where we're just going to get into the mud and we're just human and we're limited and weak and we're needy and we need one another. And when we're okay with that we can actually get to you.

Mary:

That's so good.

Gary:

 

It’s so good. It really is. It's like I think it changes the world if we can learn how to do this with one another.

Mary:

What would you say to someone who is afraid to be vulnerable but feels that perhaps they might need to be?

Gary:

Oh my goodness, I would say it's hard, really hard. And again, I had to learn as a grown man how to be vulnerable. Sometimes I get too vulnerable. Like I think this semester I do my heart week at G42. I share a story of my silence is what put insecurity and rejection on my daughters. And what I mean by that is when I was angry with them when they would come in the room, I wouldn't tell them I was angry, I would just be silent. And they were all of a sudden becoming insecure and rejected. And I was like, gosh, the girls are so insecure and my wife tried to kept telling me that's because you're silent. And a lot of men now, a lot of dads go silent because they don't win. They're doing okay at work but at home it's hard and it's hard with our kids. And sometimes our marriages are really hard. And so, men just go silent. And what the Father wants is men that are not silent and men that are exposing their heart and being vulnerable with their own children and saying man daddy just doesn't know. And guess what it's okay to say I don't know. It's okay to not know. In fact, that's really freeing. I say I don't know a lot more than I say I know now, right? And so yeah, I think that's it. I think we've got to risk and we've got to allow people to climb back in those really tender spaces in our heart and just be extremely honest. And then trust that the Father is going to make that up on the back end.

Mary:

And I just want to say I love your heart for our generation. On behalf of people who are my age, like, we really appreciate your mentorship and your intentionality to speak life into us and to even admit, you know, places where people in your generation have fallen through or perhaps, we feel hurt. I think that's a really selfless thing to look at a people group that's like completely outside of yourself and related to you and say, “I'm going to pour into this generation and these people and see them well.” And you do that and we can see the fruit of that.

Gary:

Thank you. I think that's the only way there's a multi-generational movement that God wants to do. And Malachi 4:5&6 is my theme of my life is God wants to take the hearts of parents and turn them to children and children's hearts and turn them back and He'll break the curse. Well, we talk a lot about generational curses. I think God wants to start generational blessing in our families where the curses are broken, right. And He, Jesus broke the curse force in Galatians 3. We have to apply that. But then now I want your generation to not put divorce on your kids. Don't put pornography on your kids. Put the blessings of God and what he's doing in your life. And the only way that comes is that I have to take responsibility for what we did as the church as a father, an older person in the church, you know. We lied to you guys about what salvation mean. We didn't tell you what gospel was. And we made up all these fear-based things out of scripture that aren't even real scripture just out of our own fear. And so, I want to take responsibility for that. I want to repent to you as a generation and then I want us to work together to get the truth. Search scripture together and search lights together and find out that we win this thing. And there's a lot of hope. And that we actually get to build this kingdom thing, this thing called Kingdom together as generation.

Mary:

Amen. I'm excited to build this too.

Gary:

I know you are. That's why I'm sitting here. I love your heart Mary. 

Mary:

Well, thank you. And I've heard you talk about a fatherless generation and that spirit and those occurrences that have been prevalent and especially our generation and the world as it is now. So, can you kind of define what you mean or what you've seen and that?

Gary:

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, 70, I think it's 77% of African American home or black American homes are fatherless. 67% of Hispanic homes are fatherless. More than 50% of Caucasian homes in America, the dads have just left. And a lot of the dads that are home like we talked about are silent. And so what that means is there's a gap that happens in a young person's heart when dad doesn't show up. When dad walks in the room, the whole room should shift and become safe, and become joyful because dad's here. What's happened in our generation is that our dads’ didn't know that and all they knew was work. So they gave themselves to ministry or to work and they became workaholics or alcoholics. And nobody talked about it, there wasn't the Facebook and all the social media back then. And so that, you know, the boomers can kind of criticize real easily. But if they're honest with themselves, they created a real hole, a gap in fatherlessness where they weren't fathered. You know, the young men don't know how to change oil and change a tire. My own 23-year-old son on the phone the other day. We lost a 19-year-old son and Friday would have been his birthday and all my kids were kind of breaking down at different levels. And my 23-year-old son said, “daddy, I just need more of you. Can you just be present? I don't need you to do anything. We don't have to fish. I just need more of my daddy.” And in tears, you know, and for me that kills me because I give all my time and effort and energy to the next generation and my own kids still need daddy just to be around and not be some famous guy or some other guy but just be daddy, right? And so when we figure that out as fathers that we initiate that because you can initiate your own kids and that's a whole other podcast. We never want to get into it. I want to stand in the gap for Mary's parents. Not that they were bad or they missed it but it takes another person sometimes to speak truth into our own kids. And they go “oh” and our parents go like as a dad when my kids tell me something somebody said to them and they finally got on like, “I've been saying that to you for 30 years, right?” But I rejoice now because I want that gap to be filled by other dads and moms that will maybe they need a second chance. Maybe they didn't do great with their kids but now they can. Now they can speak life into the next generation and fill those gaps. And so, fatherlessness is a real deal. I think it's the number one epidemic in America. I think that's why we have so much violence right now and the politics. It's taking over in politics. It's wrecking the inner cities. It’s wrecking all of America. And so, we need dads and moms to step up. So that's a lot to talk about.

Mary:

I like the phrasing that you've used of dads going silent. Because, you know, that's good language to what we see today. And will bring some clarity, I think to on both ends, that you can even have, you know a physical father figure in your home but if they're not engaged or speaking up or acting out

Gary:

Or being vulnerable is the key. You know, for me again, with my daughters, I didn't realize it. Then the Lord showed me as I'm reading this heart document that I had put that on them just by being silent. So I went back to my daughters, I got on my knees and repented to them. And we call it an epidemic silence. Adam was silent in the garden when he was about ready to eat the fruit. And should have spoken up and said, “that's my woman get away,” right? And we as dads sometimes we don't feel adequate so we just stay silent. And God's going to know we need you men to speak up not in anger, right? We either transmit our anger on our family and our kids or we're transformed by our anger and we become somebody better indifferent. 

And then I want my voice to speak up because if I'm not saying it, some other you know, whoever out there might be saying it to my little girl or my son and I don't want that to happen. So, I want to be able to speak words of affirmation and of life that have discipline because I build trust. And then I want to be really vulnerable. Dad's really weak here. Dad's afraid of this and my kids now know my weaknesses and they celebrate that with me. That's a big part of it.

Mary:

Yeah. And it's hard to have trust without vulnerability and so important in a family dynamic as well.

Gary:

Absolutely.

Mary:

Do you mind if I ask you about your own family and your father? 

Gary:

No, please.

Mary:

Have you had to walk through this with your father as well? 

Gary:

 

Absolutely. So my dad, like I said, was a cowboy. He didn't know his dad was an alcoholic who tried to kill him, did kill his mom, would pull guns and pull the trigger and it wouldn't go off. And so he lived through that. He left home at 18 with $25 from Nebraska. And so then he had three kids and I was the baby. He had no idea how to beat that. So he was angry. You know, we got knocked through a few garages. But I'm writing a book right now actually about times that the Father's heart would show up in my dad. And it would overcome what I was going through. And I've got all these stories that I didn't even realize but looking back, God use my dad in so many awesome ways. And he's 81 now and we're best friends. We're both are A on the enneagram. So we love getting in arguments and we argue scripture all the time. Because we do not see scripture completely the same way. And everybody else leaves the room. But it's just intimacy and fun for us. So yeah, there was a huge gap there for a long time. And then I made promises that I'd never raised my kids the way he raised me. And then of course, you find yourself raising your kids the same way. Be careful what you say and how you judge your parents. Be quick to forgive because what you'll find when you become a parent you start doing the same exact things. And you literally catch yourself like what are you doing right? So, I was angry and I was silent and I was all the things that I promised I'd never be. And then I had to recognize that and go back and fix that. So, it's never too late. But my kids still are, they struggle. I think all the time if, you know, I hear all these young people's stories, hundreds of young people's stories, I think my child could be sitting here saying this same thing to me, right. So, I want to make sure that even now getting to my mid-50s, that my grown children they're 18 to 30, 5 left that I'm just in it with them and I'm just listening. And I don't need to be right anymore. I don't need to fix them. I need to listen to them. I need to be really vulnerable with them. And then I need to give them just wisdom that God's giving me and point them to the Father. And I would say this to all young parents, don't point them to yourself. Always point them back to God. And don't steal the hunt from your children. Go let them figure some things out.

Mary:

Yeah. That's so good. Were you angry at your father growing up?

Gary:

I was.  A lot of anger, a lot of disappointment and it took us a while to work through all that. But we did.

Mary:

Yeah, because you said you are best friends with your father now. 

Gary:

We are best friends today. And I'm moving back to Colorado Springs to be with him to help him end well. Because yeah, it's just incredible. But it took a long time. And now, you know, with my son's death and my mom, my sister, my brother have all passed away in the last three years. So, he and I are the only two left in our, you know, nucleus family. And we need each other. And we know we're needy and my dad at 81 will say I don't know now. I'm like this is awesome, right? So don't ever give up on those relationships.

Mary:

Now that relationship something, definitely to celebrate. I'm very happy for you and what were some of the first steps that you had to take in that reconciliation process? 

Gary:

You know, I had to be really honest with him and I'll never forget. It started when I was 16. I got kicked off the basketball team because of my grades and I was sitting behind the bench, and I was really ticked off at my coach, because I didn't think of course I was a victim, I should have been kicked off. So I'm just going to leave the game early and because we're losing. And I'm walking out of the gym and my dad's arm comes around me. Now my dad, he never came to my games because he was always working. So there was no way that he would be at this game and know that I got kicked off and there he was. So I'm like, oh my gosh. He puts his arm around me and he says, “get home.” And I'm literally thinking, ‘how can I die before I get in the doorway.’ And he was standing in the kitchen with his arms crossed and he looked at me and I knew he was just going to start going off. So I started screaming at my dad. I think it was Holy Spirit. I started telling him how I could never live up, I could never be good enough for him, that he's ruined us as kids. I mean, I was just screaming and crying. And he just stood there and listened to me with his arms crossed in his scowl. And when I got all done, he had tears running down his face. And he looked at me and he said, “you know, son, I could line up all your friends and not know you were them and I choose you every single time to be my son. And he started telling me why. And so that was the first time he and I had the encounter of a father's heart to me from him. But I took some, but I had, I just got brave, I think by Holy Spirit and I just told him. And so that's how it started, literally and we had a few encounters like that. But yeah.

Mary:

What would you say to other people who are looking for reconciliation with their fathers and haven't taken any steps yet?

Gary:

Yeah, number one, you got to forgive, right? It's the only commandment that comes with the promise. If your honor them, it goes well for you. Now, it doesn't say you got to honor them because they're perfect because they're not. Every family's dysfunctional. So number one is you do have to find forgiveness and release them. And a lot of times they don't even know how to do this, most men my age you know. The number one suicide rate or one of the number one in America now is 50 year old men, white men. Because they get to 50 ish and all the stuff they built mean nothing. Because it's not around what the Father was asking them to do. And so, they feel empty, and they feel alone. So, for me, it's that don't expect them to be perfect in it because they won't but come to them in your vulnerability as their child and just say, “dad, I want you to forgive me because I have not always been there like I should have been probably. And I just want relationship with you, whatever that looks like. And I want you to help me determine that.” And if you come in that kind of vulnerability and humility, I don't know any dad that's not going to respond to that at some level. And again, don't get expectation out the window of how you think they should respond because most men don't know how. They've never shown. Men my age were never shown how to do this, very few of us. And so yeah, don't expect a lot but you have to initiate that, if they're not going to. That's tough.

Mary:

Yeah, that's a lot of bravery. But it's a good encouragement.

Gary:

Yeah, it really is. And now again there's been you know, just physical abuse and you know lots of abuse in some of our families and I understand that. And it's really difficult to open your heart back up to that. And so I'm not saying be stupid about it but if you know that your hearts crying out for relationship with your parents then take that first step of not fixing them and not needing them to do something but being vulnerable and asking for their forgiveness for some of the things you've had in your heart towards them. 

I teach this all the time. The number one way we break addiction in our lives is when we get accusation towards God out of our heart. We all have accusation in our heart towards God. You didn't do this, this person didn't live, why does this person have cancer. You know all the things we accuse God of doing in a fallen world where really bad things happen to really good people because we're in a fallen world, right? When we can deal with that accusation and then we can deal with that accusation on our hearts towards our parents then God starts to heal things and we don't even have to do it. Like we're just shocked that all of a sudden, dad picked up the phone and called me or text me and just wants to go have a date. You're like, what? No, right? Because God does.

Mary:

And something I've been thinking about lately whether it's about work or relationships or other things is praying into like, what is my part two do and acting out on that but you can't really control results of anything, to be honest. And of course, we are looking for results in relationships and building relationships or you know if you're doing work to build a business or whatever it may be. All we're asked to do is what we can do, you know. And the results are up to God and submitting those to the Father. Of those expectations, at least for me, provides so much freedom. So, I love that.

Gary:

Yeah, that's how we get to freedom. We live a life of confession. 1John 1:9, I confess, my heart gets healed. And then forgiveness. And I got to be the first to forgive every time. And that's really hard because of the things that have been done to us.

Mary:

Yeah, you know that takes a lot of humility. That's important. That's good.

Gary:

That's really important.

Mary:

So thinking back to maybe when you were younger, what do you think you needed at that time and considering your family situation and your relationship with your parents? 

Gary:

Just time. And I think that, you know, like I said my mom was amazing. She was an angel, and she was all she, but she cuddled us. And I think one of the issues with the generation, your generation specifically, is that it's been over cuddled, not necessarily spoiled. But you, there's no, nobody has any needs. And you don't have to wait on anything. And I love what Gary Vaynerchuk teaches. He's like, if you're 18 and still on your parents’ cell phone plan, you can't be happy. And most people are like ,‘what’? And then when my 25/26-year old’s G42 kids call me and I see their dad's name come up, that's the first thing I always say to him, right? If you're still on daddy's cell phone plan, okay, right. Young men especially want responsibility. Young women want value, right? And so, we don't think we want responsibility but when we get it, we step up to it. And someone like you, Mary, you're you know, you are an anomaly in your generation. I mean you're a worker. You're not afraid to work. And again, this isn't against your generation. We haven't given this value to you guys. And so when you're cuddled or over-cuddled and I was by my mom, I expected people to do stuff for me instead of going and doing it myself. And that's what I mean by don't steal the hunt from your kids. When my kids would come to me and say, “hey dad, I need to go card.” And I'd say, “okay great, I'm in for half. So, tell me how you're going to pay for half of this.” So, they'd go shovel alpaca poop or you know, whatever, at 12 years old, at 15 years old to buy a motorcycle. So, I wanted them to feel the value of what that was and they take better care of it. And so that's what we have to do. And we've got to learn that value of hard work. And I love watching that and involved in both of you guys.

Mary:

Thank you. Sometimes when I'm interacting with other people especially young men, I'm afraid to put responsibility on other people or give them or call them into that responsibility because I'm like oh no, they're probably you know not going like that or backlash or whatever that is but really seeing or listening to you and Lisa, I know talk about this as well. And then seeing some of the results of that, when that does happen when people are called into their responsibilities that God has called them to and own that. So many people, especially young men come alive and yeah, that's something I'd love to see.

Gary:

That's when your heart activates, right? I got to do this. Oh, my gosh, my dreams are valid. Everything is okay. It would take somebody else speaking that into us. I was walking in the mountains of Mijas, because you know our school used to be in Spain as you know and you guys were there with us. And the Lord's whispered to me, said there's hundreds of 1000s of people in the second and third row of every church that have never been activated. Nobody's ever prophetically looked into them and told them who they were. 

And so, I feel like part of my role in life is to look at the Mary's of the world and say, “this is who you are. This is what I can see in you.” And then you go wait, what? Really? And then that comes alive and activates. And now here's some responsibility. Go do something with this. And I'll walk with you but I'm not going to do it for you. And you just see young people in your generation specifically come alive like crazy and I love that. That's why I do what I do. That’s my paycheck.

Mary:

I love that. Yeah, we're in this together. That's a huge dream I have to let people know that these things that God put on their hearts that they have permission to really go after that. And I know you've helped me connect to God in that and I can't thank you enough because that realization really changed my life. And I definitely pray that over our students in global you and really any anyone that I come across.

Gary:

Yes! And you've helped me because honestly like I've watched your heart come alive and that makes my heart come alive. And so reverse mentoring and doing this together is the point, right? If it heals and feeds us both.

Mary:

That's so beautiful. 

Gary:

We have to do it.

Mary:

Well, it's been put on my heart that maybe we can pray for everyone listening and just kind of like our generation for families to come together and that people can be ignited in their calling. Can we do that?

Gary:

Yep. Absolutely! I'll pray. All right. Father in Jesus name, I know your whole point is to get your family back. All you care about is getting your family back. And I know the story of the prodigal son, the father had a path worn out, waiting for his son to come home even though all though it is illegal for him to run down that driveway and he didn't know if his son was wealthy. He didn't know if his son was broke. He didn't know if his son was a homosexual. He didn't know anything about his son but he waited every day with arms wide open if he ran to him. And Father, I know, you're wanting to run to everyone listening and just hold them and speak life into them and to activate those dreams and to heal their families. And Father in Jesus name, I asked where any of us listening need to forgive that God you'd put that in there. 

We've tried so many times maybe. We sat there and said, “God, why can’t I do this?” Father, would you supernaturally help each one of us get to forgiveness right away. I want to be a man that forgives quicker than anyone. And I pray that through the Lord's Prayer through Matthew 6 every day. I pray that over the people listening. God, would you restore families where they need to be restored? Would you call that prodigal children where they need to be called back? And Father, would you teach us how to love one another from our hearts in a deep way that God will start to change everyone who sees us and everyone that's around us because all we want to do is make everyone's heart look like the Garden of Eden. And in fact, that's our only job. And so God thank you, that you love us and that's the only reason we're here and then we get to love others the same way. In Jesus name, amen.

Mary:

God, I just pray that we as children on Earth, learn what it means to be a good son or daughter to you, but then also to our earthly parents as well that we are able to step into bravery and courage depending on you know, whatever situation we might have grown up in. So yeah, I just pray that we as children are activated and that. Amen

Gary:

Amen. Wow. Cool. Well, I love it.

Mary:

Thanks, Gary. So there's so many things that we can talk about. So much wisdom that you have, I mean, that the Lord's given to you and how he's written your story. And we'd love to bring you back on some time to maybe talk more.

Gary:

I would love that. I think I want to make sure and come back and talk about just, I had to go through some really hard things in life to get to a place of that second half of life and the transformation. And I want to save literally people a decade of their life, if they'll do it better and more successful than I did. And when you're a second half of life person, you just want everyone else to be successful and go way beyond you. And so, I'd love to talk about that sometime with you.

Mary:

Yeah, that'd be awesome. I'm so excited. I'll be looking forward to it and if you know anyone listening wants to learn more about your ministry and what God's calling you to do. And just what you have, where can they go to?

Gary:

Just www.garyandlisablack.com  very simple. Everything is there. Our coaching stuff pops up first but the ministries and the stuff we're touching and where we're going and live in and we kind of go all over the world when we can when COVID goes away in Jesus name. So yeah, www.garyandlisablack.com. That's it.

Mary:

Awesome. And I'll put that in the notes. So, thank you.

Gary:

Yes, you're awesome. Thank you.

Mary:

Thank you for joining us today. And if this episode could bring education, empathy or hope to those you know, go ahead and share a link. Also, if you have an untold story that you'd like to share, we'd love to meet you. Please apply to be a guest on our podcast at www.untoldstoryproject.org.